37: Everything You Need To Know About Hiring a Copywriter, But Didn’t Know You Needed to Ask with Jennifer Dugas Bitting of The Equine Copywriter

Kimberly Beer  0:00  

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Cara Taylor Swift  0:18  

Hey there business animals Cara here. Kim and I are so excited to share this week’s episode with you, we had the opportunity to sit with Jennifer Dugas Bitting of the equine copywriter, and discuss all the things that animal equine and pet based businesses need to know before and during the process of hiring a copywriter. So stick around enjoy the episode and just note that at the end of the episode, we’ll tell you how you can get your hands on a business questionnaire and an ideal client questionnaire that Jennifer has put together for us. Without further ado, please enjoy today’s episode.

Jaz  0:54  

Welcome to The Business Animal podcast. settle up for a gallop to the top of the animal industry where you’ll learn how to tame your wild business beast with tips, techniques, and tools that will take overwhelm to obedience school and have you wagging your tail with joy. And now your hosts Kim Beer and Cara Taylor Swift

Kimberly Beer  1:16  

Hey there business animals It’s Kim with Be More Business

Cara Taylor Swift  1:19  

and Cara with Fast Horse Photography. Welcome everyone. We are so excited I have someone that I’ve been working with now for several years. With us today. Her name is Jennifer Dugas Bitting and Jen were just so happy to have you I have so enjoyed our working relationship over the last few years you have saved me and inspired me in so many ways and I am super excited to share you even though it’s gonna be challenging for me to release and share you but to share you with other animal based business owners out there. So you all I’m going to introduce Jennifer real quick Jennifer has been a horse woman for over 45 years she currently boards horses and gives riding lessons to who she really believes are some of the best students on the planet. I’m not going to argue with her I haven’t met them but I’m gonna go with that or equine experience ranges from show horses to backyard horses to equine therapy. Her background gives her a unique skill set to write specific and customized equine related content that carries the voice of multiple equine brands across all platforms. Her equine skill set and knowledge give her the ability to emotionally connect with equestrian businesses, online communities driving their brand forward and growing their online presence. She specializes in blogs, email sequences, sales pages, e commerce and website copy. Welcome, Jennifer, we are so excited to have you on the show today.

Kimberly Beer  2:45  

Welcome.

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  2:46  

Thank you, I have to tell you, I’m big fans and big fans of the show. I listen all the time. I really enjoy it. And I’m really happy to be here. Thank you.

Cara Taylor Swift  2:55  

Well, you deserve to be here and we’re super excited to have you. So for those that haven’t figured it out yet, Jennifer and I have worked together now for several years. And she is an equine copywriter, and she has helped me personally and for my business Fast Horse Photography creates some pretty great blog content. She’s helped with web page content. Gosh We’ve done several things together over the last few years. But she is someone that has worked really hard to really learn my voice and to create some amazing stuff for me, Jen, can you tell our listeners how you got into the business of copywriting like what inspires you to go that route and to do that work,

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  3:32  

it’s actually I kind of fell into it. I have a special needs child who needs 24 hour care, and I needed a job that I could do at home when she was sleeping. And so I was looking for something that I could do that I was passionate about that fit that need. And a friend of mine suggested copywriting and I put it together with the equine and I love it. I love it. It’s really great. And it works perfect for my routine,

Cara Taylor Swift  4:00  

I can tell that you love it because you will send me like ideas all the time. Like I can tell that you’re like at home and you’ll come across an idea and you’ll be like that’s a great fit for Fast Horse Photography. Because you sent me these amazing ideas. And I mean a lot of times when I come to the table, I’ll have ideas but it’s been so fun. I never thought working with a copywriter would mean that I would have someone to brainstorm with you know and to really think through ideas I just assumed I think originally when I got started working with you that I would have to be like these are the ideas and really kind of manage that more than what I have to do with you. So thank you maybe that’s not everyone but I appreciate that from you so

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  4:38  

glad I’m glad it’s fun too. I’m so inspired by your artwork, your photography is just artwork to me and looking at it just inspires me to come up with different ideas and try to branch out to different ways to do copy for you,

Kimberly Beer  4:53  

Cara will take it

Cara Taylor Swift  4:54  

Thank you

Kimberly Beer  4:56  

very talented So Jennifer, we want to talk with you today because we’d like our listeners to be able to understand how to work with a copywriter. Because a lot of people I know out there struggle with writing copy, I hear it all the time in my business, when I’m consulting with small business owners, a lot of them don’t like to write, it’s not an easy task for them. But they have absolutely no idea of how to work with a copywriter. And it feels really odd and strange. And they have a lot of concerns about working with a copywriter and I hopefully are today, our big three with you is going to be to cover a lot of things around that. If you could start out by just telling us what do we need to know to get started working with a copywriter?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  5:47  

Those are some really good points and really good questions. And people are confused about working with a copywriter and what it means and what we do. The goal is to write persuasive, purposeful and engaging copy that goes across all of your marketing platform, like websites, videos, print ads, catalogs, commerce descriptions, blogs, even your social media, people don’t realize that there’s copy everywhere billboards that you see driving down the street, at the doctor’s office, when you’re picking up a brochure, the sign that’s on the counter when you check in with the nurse copies everywhere. So when you’re looking for a copywriter, a lot of people are nervous, because they don’t think they’re going to connect and they don’t know what the person is going to write about. And it’s just going to be non emotional, non connected content. But really the goal of the copywriter is to write material that draws the customer in, that solves a problem that points to a product or a service that will be helpful to the person. So the goal is for the copywriter to recognize difficulties in the industry or a problem that somebody has or help that somebody needs, and then write the copy. So it points to the answer.

Kimberly Beer  7:08  

So wait a minute, so hold the phone here just a second. Because what you just said is so important. What you’re telling me is that part of your job as a copywriter is to understand if I’m your client, my target market, what their pains are, what their pain points are, what they’re really looking for, the language that they speak. And what you do is that you actually take the time to understand that so that when you and I are working together, the copy that you write, is really written very much for my target market. Is that what I’m hearing?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  7:45  

Yes, exactly. The goal is to learn your target market to understand your target market to learn how you speak to your target market, and then to write directly to them to build your brand voice.

Kimberly Beer  7:58  

And that is so important. Because here’s another thing I know about working with a lot of small business owners, a lot of them don’t even understand how to do that research. And so being able to have someone to kind of hold their hand through that and help and talk about it and then actually execute on the copy. That has to be a huge relief. How did that work for you? Cara? Was that a big relief for you and your business?

Cara Taylor Swift  8:22  

Well, when I went into looking for a copywriter, I had no idea what I was really looking for. I knew I wanted to up blog post game, and I knew I had some website content or copy that needed to be updated. But I really didn’t know like I was terrified of working with somebody that I’d never worked with before that I didn’t know that was I mean, for those that don’t know, you know, Jen is all the way in California and I’m all the way in Florida. So somebody that were on opposite sides, you know, the United States. And so I had to do a little work on my end. on my end, I was like, you know, what do I need to ask this person? You know, I don’t even know what an average copywriter is going to charge me? And then what is the work to expect from them? I had no idea. So I did a little research on my end. And I hope Jen will fill us in on some of that too. I was really worried that when I worked with someone that they wouldn’t be able to speak in my voice that they wouldn’t understand my audience that it would sound cold. And like it was something that was just computer generated. And people would be like, what, what is that that you’ve put out there. And I have been blown away with how hard Jennifer has worked to write content to write copy that is coming from me, you know, and that she’s takes my ideas and thinks about how I write and how I speak and has made that a part of the work. So and then on top of that, all the ideas that she’s brought to the table around, you know, keywording and SEO work I mean, you’ve done so much of that, that I didn’t even know whas possible with a copywriter

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  9:50  

that’s part of the job is not only to be persuasive, but to also work on the keywords so that you rank in Google so that your site comes up first so that your blog comes up. So people are reading and learning. That’s a big part of the job.

Cara Taylor Swift  10:07  

We put a lot of thought into that, like we were really looking at different areas of the market where people are searching. And I know that we were very strategic throughout the last couple of years about that. So and I can see a big a big difference.

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  10:19  

Yes, absolutely.

Kimberly Beer  10:21  

That is so cool. Well, Jen, I know that there’s probably people on the line going, Okay, how do I start this process. And when we pre talked about this episode, we came up with kind of three steps that will really help people be able to execute on finding a copywriter and then establishing a relationship that is positive, and that they get the benefits that Cara has been talking about, because I just think this is so huge, especially for people who are uncomfortable writing. For me, I love writing copies. So it’s never been a problem. But I do know that I have clients out there that struggle with this. So basically, for our listeners, what we’re going to talk about are kind of three steps that you need to take to really make an effective relationship with a copywriter. The first one is understanding what you want to accomplish with that copywriter. Can you tell us a little bit about what that dialogue and what that discussion feels like, when you start working with a client, Jennifer?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  11:19  

Yeah, I have a pretty specific process. Usually somebody contacts me via my website or email. And before I talk to them, I look at their website, and I look at their social media, and also check their stats on their website and their business and see how long they’ve been in business and the growth over the years over the months. And then I book a client call for a discovery call to get to know the person to get to know their personality for them to tell me their business, the ins and outs of their business and what they’re looking for, what their goals are, what they want to accomplish. I also give them a business questionnaire and an ideal client questionnaire so that I can get really clear on what their business goals are. Because that’s key for me to know exactly where they want to go, what their plans are, but also their ideal clients so that I can speak directly to that person, that’s probably the most important part, then I usually write a proposal, and I give them different choices. There’s like the full package, if you want to do everything, if you want to update your website copy, if you want to work on your bio, if you want to do a press release, add blogs, so just depends on what your goals are with your business. So I can do a lot of things or I can do a smaller package that maybe is more affordable for people usually recommend doing four blogs a month to really draw attention to your business. But you can still get away with two blogs a month, that’s okay, too. Then I write a sample project. So it gives you an opportunity to hear how I write and to see how I connect with you and your business and the direction that you want to go. So that helps you get an idea of how I work. And I work in Google Docs. So that way you can look at what I write and you can make corrections or make changes what you don’t like I also work with an editor. So after I do my work, I send it off to an editor, which is awesome because she always finds even errors that I make. So I provide two rounds of edits before the product is ready to go onto your website or your ecommerce or whatever project we’re doing. So that’s the basis of how I work.

Cara Taylor Swift  13:36  

I found too that it the early stages of the two of us working together that there was a lot more of that back and forth as you learned, I guess how to speak to my voice. There’s a lot more of that. But then as time has gone on, like you already kind of know what I’m going to say or what my response is going to be and you can anticipate those questions and it’s really been fine tuned over time which you know, for anyone who’s thinking about that I think that should be part of the process too is that you should be fine tuning that relationship.

Kimberly Beer  14:06  

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Jennifer Dugas Bitting  15:10  

yes really developing that relationship and that’s the next part once we start working together and getting to know each other and I learn you know if they have children if they don’t have children if they’re married or not or what their lifestyle is like that also helps me if they’re a runner if they’re not if they exercise before they go to the barn, whatever all those little things help with the writing and I’m constantly reading the social media just to follow you know, their personality and what they’re doing in their life like with you, you know, to know where that you’re out of town and you’re, you know, on a horse ranch filming horses and just different things like that to add into the writing to make it so that the goal I have a lot of actual a lot of customers that I’m a ghostwriter for, so they don’t tell people that they use a copywriter. And so the the biggest compliment is when people don’t think they’re using a copywriter and they think that the person is doing all the work themselves. 

Kimberly Beer  16:10  

That is so cool. So for those of you out there listening who have that concern, you don’t have to credit back the copywriter? Is that a conversation that you have with people kind of upfront whether they want you to work as a ghostwriter or whether they want to do byline credits or something like that?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  16:29  

Yes, we talk about that in the front. Most people want a ghostwriter and so you know that’s if you’re getting into copywriting some people you think you know I want the credit but that’s not what I do the writing for I do the writing so that people don’t know that I’m doing the writing that’s my that’s what makes it fun for me that’s the challenge for me that I enjoy

Cara Taylor Swift  16:51  

it’s funny because that was a concern of mine when I first got started was like our people gonna know I’m using a copywriter and does that make my business does it make it seem like I’m not doing as good a job with my business or I don’t have it all together that I need to hire someone and as time went on, I really understood the value of letting you do that side of things so that I can kick ass at other parts of my business. And it’s gotten to the point now where I mean obviously I have you on the show and we’re announcing to the world that I use a copywriter but also that I have no problem like you know like tagging you on my LinkedIn posts and you know that the things that come up that I’m like, you know, in letting people know I work with you like I’ve sent other people your direction and that sort of thing. So it’s a it’s been an interesting transition. So if there’s other business owners out there that are worried at all like that, just know that they’re like, you know, Jennifer’s saying there are options there and maybe you’ll be like me and you’ll kind of grow into it.

Kimberly Beer  17:45  

I just wanted to comment that when when you say you’re using a copywriter To me it makes me think Wow, she’s super successful in her business because now she can start farming out copywriting you know, so it’s just, uh, it’s funny how that mindset shift works. It’s, it’s one of the things I’ve I’ve been an entrepreneur long enough to know, oh, if you have it together enough that you’ve, you’ve thought about it, you’ve hired a copywriter, and that person is writing for you, you must be doing really, really well. A different different thought around that. Right?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  18:19  

I was gonna say, too, I think it’s so important as entrepreneurs that we have to learn to hand off parts of our business so that we can work more in other areas of our business. And it’s scary, you know, to let go of that control and this is a great way to do it to hand that off and to have somebody you know, do your blogs, do your emails, do your do that work for you, so that you can then focus on something else. It’s a great area to let go.

Kimberly Beer  18:46  

Absolutely. Now one other question I have before we move on Jennifer is we’ve talked about blogs we’ve talked about website writing and brochures very commercial kind of work, very marketing advertising kind of work. What about if somebody wants to hire you to help them maybe write a white paper or an article or something like that, that might even get published somewhere else? Is that a service that you provide as well? Or do you kind of stick to the to the marketing aspects of writing?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  19:18  

That’s a great question. I don’t personally do white papers. There are a lot of copywriters out there that do that. I don’t know about equine copywriters that do. So that’s a good question. Because when you’re looking for I think we’re going to talk about this later. But when you’re looking for a copywriter, and you’re checking out their website and communicating with them, you might want to gather an idea of what you’re looking for. Because if somebody contacted me and said, they were wanting to do a white paper research article, I’d probably direct them to somebody else that focuses in that area, because I don’t so that’s a really good question because it’s good to clarify what you’re looking for. And then When you talk to the person to see if they do what you’re looking for some copywriters don’t do blogs, they don’t write blogs at all. They do just sales copy, they do brochures, they do different forms of copies. So you do want to find out what they do and if that meets your need,

Kimberly Beer  20:17  

yep. And what what other suggestions now that we’re kind of on that topic? What other suggestions do you have for people when they when they want to look for a copywriter? I mean, where do we find these special unicorns that are happy writers that are willing to help us and what should our listeners be looking at when they’re when they’re deciding to hire a copywriter?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  20:38  

Well, I think you’d want to start by you can, you know, just google that’s our wonderful friend, Google, the copywriter. And if you let’s say you are you have a Dog Boarding business, you can google Dog Boarding copywriter, and 99.999% of the time, those businesses are going to pop up. And their job is to make themselves rank on Google. So the top three are the ones you’re going to want to call, ask them when you’re talking to them, talk to them about where they work. So if you’re thinking or you might not know at all what you’re looking for. And so you can ask them, how they can help your business. Talk to them about the goals of your business and what you’re looking to accomplish. I just worked with a customer that designed saddles, and they have a huge business, they have tons of customers. And so when I first connected with them, I was thinking what is going to be their goal. Why do they want me because they have so much business? Well, they’re totally changing from going to expos and selling their saddles at expos to selling online. Aha. So there, they need to be known online. And they want to be connected with online where people don’t get to smell the saddle, touch the saddle, look at the saddle. So it’s total different marketing. So trying to pinpoint what you’re looking for before you call them or you might have to call them and while you’re on your discovery, called together pinpoint what you’re looking for, to help you decide if they’re the right fit for you and doing a sample project, that’s a really great way to connect, they should be willing to do a sample project for you because it’s okay if let’s say you connect with someone and they write for you and you don’t like it, don’t use that copywriter. Because that’s not going to help you, you want to be able to connect on a more personal level than you do in a lot of business situations. So you want to feel comfortable with that person. I had one person that I had a discovery call with. And they were not very friendly. I didn’t enjoy talking to them. And so I didn’t choose to do business with them. But if I was looking for a copywriter, and I was talking to a person and they were rude or harsh, or that’s not my personality, so I wouldn’t connect with them. So it’s really important that you have a good working relationship with them. You also want to review their portfolio usually on their website, they should have a portfolio so you can read different things that they’ve worked on, give you an idea of what they do, how they do it, their sound, the direction that they take in their work. And I think the last thing that’s really important is that you you speak your mind and you’re honest, if you do end up working with a copywriter that you say how you feel and if something is going in a direction that’s not working for you, you speak up, because we have, we have tough skin, we could take it. We’re in it to help you. And so it’s important that you speak your mind and you’re clear about what you’re looking for asked a lot of questions.

Cara Taylor Swift  23:47  

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Kimberly Beer  24:32  

Cool, those are all great pieces of advice. A couple of things I want to circle back to on the sample project for most copywriters. Is that a paid project or is that sort of provided as part of the exploratory process?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  24:48  

That’s a very good question. And it depends. Sometimes people want to do they want to redo their website or they’re building a whole new website and so they want a test project for a website page. Which is something that I do so we set up beforehand if they like it and they’re going to use it on their website then I asked them to pay me after I’ve written it up and they chose to use it but if it’s a blog post I’ve written blog post before that I don’t charge for it and so it just depends on the situation.

Kimberly Beer  25:18  

So I kind of get this it for in the photography world we would call that shooting on spec. So in other words, you would go and you would shoot the images and I’ve done this in graphic design as well and then if the person wants to purchase it, they can and if they don’t, then they don’t get to use it so it’s not free work or work that you provide for no payment but it is done kind of on if you approve of this and it’s something you want to move forward with is that kind of what I’m understanding you just say 

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  25:48  

yeah I think sometimes it’s just you know, it just depends on the it depends on the scenario because I’m willing to write a piece or write something and then earn that person as a client it’s totally worth it to me it just depends on the scenario generally if I do a sample project I don’t charge for it

Kimberly Beer  26:07  

So it’s good to ask

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  26:09  

yes it is very good to ask

Cara Taylor Swift  26:11  

that makes sense. What would you say that most copywriters are looking for more of like a long term relationship or more of a like will they take jobs that are like one offs like you just need something you know i don’t know you need something like a website update or something? What is your opinion on that?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  26:28  

We do both I think all copywriters do both some people just want some email sequences and they want to be done with that some people don’t know a lot of people will contact me for a press release and they just want the press release. That’s all they want. And then after I write the press release, and I give them some ideas and some things that I see on their website, and I make some suggestions and they’re like okay, I’ll try that Okay, I’ll try that so I think people that do a one off usually it’s because they don’t know what’s possible what they can do what’s possible exactly yeah. So then as they learn what’s possible, then they’re like okay, I’ll do that okay, I’ll try that let’s do this let’s do that. You know and it’s also what I going back to what I said before about releasing that control as you get more comfortable Okay, maybe I’ll have this person write something on my website you know, because a blog is not dangerous if you write a blog and it sucks you know, it’s a blog and it’ll go away but if you’re writing on my website, you know that’s really important and I don’t want you to mess that up so people you know, it says they feel more comfortable

Kimberly Beer  27:35  

Absolutely, I can totally get that another question I have for you is on the finding copywriters I would love to get your opinion on working with a copywriter that you do your research on and find online and want to build a relationship with versus maybe hiring somebody off of and I know people do this off of Fiverr or Upwork kind of quick down and dirty sort of. To me it’s like rolling the dice it’s it’s a little bit like roulette right? You shake the dice and sometimes you come out with something decent and sometimes you come out with with losing your five bucks or whatever you paid what is your opinion on on working with the copywriters that are on a lot of those sites.

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  28:19  

I do know some people that that is the way that they acquire clients and they’re really good solid copywriters, and they don’t want to market themselves Fiverr makes it really easy, you put your information on there, and people come and pick you but I can tell you that some people go to those websites because it’s a lot cheaper and so you get what you paid for you might get lucky you might find a really great copywriter on there and you might not

Kimberly Beer  28:49  

absolutely that’s been my experience

Cara Taylor Swift  28:51  

and if you’re going to establish a relationship with a copywriter, I think it probably matters less where you find them and more that you do the work that you need to do to make sure that it’s a good fit for your business. So you know, like we’ve talked about understanding what it is that you want to accomplish with a copywriter and really kind of knowing that beforehand so that wherever you’re finding your copywriter it’s going to hopefully be a better chance of being a good fit and then putting that time in to actually get to know them well learn about their work ensure that they can write in the voice that you need them to write in and that they can understand your business and so it kind of feels like if you go to a place like you know like a fiber type place where you’re getting someone is there that ability to build a relationship maybe down the line I don’t know you know and that if you are planning on having a continuing relationship, you know, are you going to be able to establish that communication and maintain it can you trust them to be honest so it probably matters less about where you find them and more that you go through those, you know our big three that you go through those steps to make sure that it’s a good fit for your business because like you said a blog post is something that you could feel might be a safe way to start out and you can put it on your website. But you know, once this stuff is out there, you won’t be proud of it.

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  30:03  

Right? Exactly.

Kimberly Beer  30:04  

Exactly. And I think this is a great time for us to just review that big three that we’ve come up with because we’ve not really lined it out really well to this point and told you exactly those steps but we’ve covered all of them. So the first one is to understand what it is you want to accomplish with a copywriter really have a clear idea of where at least you want to start you’re going to learn that you can expand that like we’ve we’ve covered already, in this episode. copywriters are able to help you with all kinds of things that are outside of maybe a blog post or website copy, they can help you with SEO, they can help you with with just a variety of things, social media wording, all of that. The second step is to get to know each other really well. Because that’s going to help the copywriter be able to to get into your voice, it’s going to help you be able to understand how to work with them. So good communication is key. And then working together consistently is the third one. Because the more you work together, the better things get. And if you can maintain that communication like I’m sure Cara and Jennifer, you guys work together how often

Cara Taylor Swift  31:12  

we work together monthly, weekly. Yeah. I mean, every week, I’m getting something from you at this point, that’s cool.

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  31:19  

Yeah, well, the thing about copywriting too, is that the long game needs to be your friend, we can do work that shows up right away. But with SEO with the keywords that’s gonna build over time and drawing your audience in over time and building your clients over time. That’s really you know, that that is at least my goal.

Kimberly Beer  31:43  

Exactly. And SEO does take a while to really register with Google and it takes you consistently doing things and that’s another reason to me to work with a single person as a copywriter, rather than just hiring multiple copywriters is because that person does understand the long game and they are able to consistently use the keywords that are going to attract Google to your site and return in search engines and really help you be able to focus in on your marketing. So from a marketing perspective, it makes a lot of sense to dig in deep with one person. So one last question for you, Jennifer, if you were to give our listeners one piece of advice around hiring a copywriter, what is your best piece of advice and that can be something we’ve kind of already covered that you want to bring back up and make sure they they understand or something new

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  32:34  

probably to find someone that helps you determine really determine your audience and figure out what their problem is what their need is. And then to write copy in whatever format it is to solve that problem, or to provide a service that they need somebody that really focuses on a strong call to action. We didn’t really talk about that earlier and that is just so that’s key. The goal of the writing is to help people and to bring the service to them that is the goal of the writing and get them to take action in using that service.

Cara Taylor Swift  33:13  

Excellent. Jennifer thank you so much and as much as I don’t want to have to share you with the rest of the world would you please tell our listeners where they can find you online?

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  33:23  

Yes, my website is easy to remember it’s theequinecopywriter.com or you can email me theequinecopywriter@gmail.com

Cara Taylor Swift  33:33  

and then are you on any of the social medias that you would want folks to find you on? LinkedIn I’m on LinkedIn so you guys pretty much if you put in equine copywriter she’s the first person that pops up so if you’re looking for somebody I recommend Jen but I’m know there’s probably a lot of other amazing copywriters out there. The big thing is, is we want you to start thinking about how can you work with a copywriter and consider Is this a good fit for your business. So thank you so much for being here with us today. We’ve enjoyed having you. 

Jennifer Dugas Bitting  34:02  

You’re welcome, thank you so much.

Jaz  34:04  

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Business Animal. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you learned something today, leave us a review. To learn more, find us at The Business animal.com we’d love to hear from you. Until next time, keep your business well trained with The Business Animal

Transcribed by https://otter.ai